Cheryl and Emerald - EFFORTS PAY OFF [Florida Parks]

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Cheryl and Emerald - EFFORTS PAY OFF in forum [Florida Parks]

Genesis
Posts: 3293
Incept: 2004-02-05
Destin, FL

Today in response to the FOIA I filed on the 22nd, I received a call from the Florida State Park System's attorney.

Short form: Cheryl and Emerald will be open to diving.

Also, I have been formally granted permission to inspect and obtain copies of records that may be of interest at the Wakulla Park Office; the manager will be there after the 1st of April, and I am currently coordinating a trip over there to inspect, identify, and obtain copies of all records that bear on the continuing question of access to state park lands by diving interests.

The short form though is that those of you who signed the petitions, either here on the web or in the shops, DID THE JOB!

Now we need to put together a coalition to come up with the infrastructure needs (e.g. building boardwalks, etc) so that we can actually GO DIVING.

Hats off folks - we will continue to effort the document study issue on how it took this long to get where we are today - but the power of the people - once again - comes through.

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2005-03-25 15:41:02
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Cb
Posts: 5
Incept: 2005-03-25

Hey, Cool about the news. Working to open the site this year is better than not willing to open it at all. It seems that you might want to thank Mike Poucher. He wrote the letters and by working in the system was able to get results. The petition you mention was not started until 12/29. The letters were dated Jan 6th. I don't think they had as much influence as Mike's efforts. I did not send nor sign a petition because I felt that efforts had not fully been explored with the management of the DEP. I felt that 'forcing the state to open the site' was ill advised. I didn't find out until your post that a small group had continued to keep in touch with the DEP and continued to negotiate with them. Outside pressure to me would have been less than helpfull. I personally believe that sights are opened through a willingness of managers and owners of sites to work with indiviual cave divers and group representatives. I hope that future efforts can be co-ordinated by Mike and the group currently working with the Park System without too much over enthusiastic outside interference.

2005-03-25 19:17:31
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Phishfood
Posts: 682
Incept: 2004-03-03
Central Florida

Too cool! Like i said in the other thread, keep us updated, & I will make every effort to lend a hand in the construction of necessary amenities.

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Licensed phreatic formation observer

2005-03-25 19:20:11
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Genesis
Posts: 3293
Incept: 2004-02-05
Destin, FL

Cindy;

As someone who has been aware of the history on this, you must know that what you're putting forward here is at best wishful in process and thought.

Here's reality:

1. The original petition was put together in February of 2004 by the heads of ALL the cave diving organizations, and was signed by all their representatives. It was sent to Sandra, who claims (in her letter here) that she had "never seen it." Ok. If she says so. Considering that many people have claimed that followup was attempted and rebuffed, I'm not sure I believe that - but its ok, as I'm sure that sooner or later we'll get to the bottom of that.

2. The petition drive was started at the end of this year, but its not like this was the first anyone had heard of it. Indeed, Johnny Richards had been working this for almost the entire year of 2004, as I'm sure you know, and he was not alone. BTW, the first run of the petition software generated close to a hundred signatures - before that letter was written. It went not only to Sandra, but also to Colleen - to think that it had no impact is to ignore history.

3. The letter back to Mr. Poucher was sent just a few days ago, on the 18th. What's not obvious is that there have been a lot of people sending letters in to Sandra - and her boss - since this effort got started. What I got back here was simply documentation backing up the assertion by the Park Service's counsel that diving will be permitted.

I have no idea when the decision was actually made. Note that the letter doesn't actually reference that decision and the person who made it either.

Indeed, that letter to Mr. Poucher is pretty "soft" and lacks commitment.

What I do know is that a number of us, myself included, got "form letters" back in response to our signatures on the electronic (faxed by my software) petitions that were widely interpreted as "brush offs." Were they? I don't know that either.

What I also know is that today's phone call from the counsel's office in response to my FOIA was the first concrete, no weasel-word statement from anyone that diving will be allowed. Note that the letter to Mr. Poucher is not the definitive statement - there are plenty of weasel outs in there. What's definitive is on the cover page - there's no weasel out on that one.

I personally believe that only through collective action will sites be opened and remain open. Certainly, collective action by agencies is important - if they can be brought to the table and agree.

However, Cindy, for a few agency heads to get together and without any vote of the membership say "we speak for cave divers and we want ......" is fraught with many dangers, not all of them immediately obvious. Indeed, the emails and letters flying around towards Peacock show exactly why this, without public exposition and support, can be a very, very bad idea.

Historically speaking it is grass roots action that tends to get results when politics are involved.

Thanks are due to everyone who has gotten involved. Every one of the original signatories on the petition (including Mr. Poucher), every person who signed the electronic copy I've been running, every person who signed the copies at Cave Excursions, CEE and elsewhere, those who wrote personal letters, etc.

Cindy, as I'm sure you know these sorts of things are supposed to happen "in the sunshine" in Florida - NOT in backroom deals made between a couple of people without any substantive public process.

That's been te problem up until now with the Wakulla Park System, and is why we're all working on this!

I find the suggestion that we should all just slink back off into the night and let people do a deal in the back room offensive. In addition, I find it in direct contradiction to how goverment in Florida - and elsewhere - is supposed to operate.

This much I do know - since the service (both in the letter and in my phone call with counsel, who specifically spoke with the director before calling me) has identified specific infrastructure improvements that need to be made, we now have the means to figure out if the claims are true or misdirection.

The obvious means of figuring this out is to collectively put together work crews comprised of interested people (who do not necessarily need to be cave divers) complete with their circular saws, sawhorses and hammers, along with a few trailers full of lumber and offer to show up.

If its boardwalks and steps that they want to see put in place, we'll give that to them. I have a very nice 10" DeWalt commercial-grade circular saw and I know how to use both it and a hammer - and I suspect that coordinating this effort will indeed come together.

Presented with a work crew that can put together the required improvements in a few weekends - hardly improbable given available effort - the bluff will be called.

In addition, I have no intention of dropping the FOIA inquiry, as I made clear to park service counsel. I have been specifically invited to the Wakulla Park Office to inspect any and all records that I requested for the purpose of either photographing them or having copies made (at the usual standard cost) - anything that I recover in that effort will be published, and allowed to stand on its own merits.

I believe it is important that this effort go forward for the specific purpose of preventing any future possible efforts at misdirection. If indeed nothing untoward has occurred up until now, that's fine. But knowledge that "the people are watching" is the first, last and best guarantee that nothing improper will happen.

Truth is what it is. I, and many others, want to know what the truth is.

This is a major step forward, and IMHO it was no accident that it happened. It occurred because of the very public pressure that has been brought to bear.

Let's follow it with more steps forward, rather than people telling us we ought to "step back.'

My efforts will continue, and I urge others to do so as well. I further urge you to join us Cindy.....

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Last modified: 2005-03-25 20:24:00 by genesis

2005-03-25 19:39:19
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Cb
Posts: 5
Incept: 2005-03-25

No I agree it all needs to go forward. However I didn't see 'grass roots' name on the letter. Johnny did a lot of work with along with others. He is one of the 'leaders' I am speaking of. I did not see or hear of the petition until Jan of this year. I did know of the original contacts that were made by the cave diving groups. You are right that interest by cave divers will keep getting sights open if and I repeat 'if' they are done with care. You don't drive up to someone's house and hold a gun to them and yell 'let us dive your cave or else!:)I do like the letters offering to help. It might just work. Have you told Johnny or anyone else this idea? Do you know what it is that the state needs to get done to open the site? If it's just building you may be on to something. If they need to hire people to police the site, check cirts etc. then you may need to come up with a management plan that is a little more detailed. Do you have any idea of what has or is being done in those areas? I don't. I have helped get a cave open and frankly wouldn't jump into this without at least talking with the individuals involved. Why repeat work that has already been done and why push people who are already doing the best they can (you really don't know do you) without finding out what you can REALLY do to help. I have been called the anarchist of cave diving but you may be taking my title away. :) By the way since you have all that energy we need to put some new steps at Mill Creek Sink and can use some help. The ones there now are a hazard.

2005-03-25 20:09:43
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Genesis
Posts: 3293
Incept: 2004-02-05
Destin, FL

I've been working this issue with Johnny and a handful of others Cindy....

The FOIA was originally going to go in last year. Indeed, raising this issue was what got me banned from "Deco Stop" when a few of the folks who were enjoying their 'exclusive' status (and their buddies) objected to me calling out WKPP representatives in public and threatening to file that document to both discover the truth and also attempt to achieve an equitable and reasonable resolution.

The petition effort was why I held it back - both the original and then the electronic "everyone can sign" version.

I only launched it when it appeared clear that we were not going to get a definitive reply back from the state.

It is possible that the decision was already made before I sent the FOIA in.

Its also possible that it was made when the FOIA was received and read.

I have no idea which is the case. Nor does it matter, really. What does matter is that we've seen extraordinary movement, but now is the time to take what we've achieved and make sure that it can't be slid backwards - only forwards towards the ultimate goal.

BTW, the "permanent ban" by the opponents of that access stands to this day....

It does not surprise me that there is little expression of outrage over this sort of thing, because in general people simply don't care. Nor did it dissuade me in the least, despite both that and threats made both then and later. I've been threatened by far better men than that; threats do not impress me.

What did surprise me though is that we got the traffic that we did - both in signatures on the petition but also in those who wrote personal letters and otherwise got involved.

If we now turn those signatures into able-bodied men and women with saws, hammers and nails, we will soon be diving instead of chatting online.

Days like this make all the effort worthwhile, and show just how foolish attempting to shut someone up for challenging the 'status quo' really is.

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2005-03-25 20:21:22
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Phishfood
Posts: 682
Incept: 2004-03-03
Central Florida

cb, post details, dates of work, & directions to Mill Creek Sink. Sundays are best for me, but I can usually swing a Saturday if given advance notice.

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2005-03-25 20:24:42
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Cb
Posts: 5
Incept: 2005-03-25

Believe me brother you are preaching to the choir on both having people not understand and object when you are trying to work for the greater good. I have noticed that as I get older what I think is the greater good is not always what everyone else thinks it should be. :) Diving a lot deep on air seemed to have helped that some. I think I killed that cell that causes me to get angry over stuff, hold grudges and not sleeping nights. I try to just get on with working as much as I can to accomplish what I can and talking about it less on the web. I'll set up a weekend for the Mill Creek work soon. I have to get the plans and wood before I have too many show up. If anyone is intersted in doing some of the preliminary stuff like taking out the old steps etc. PM me at butler_cynthia@bellsouth.net When the deal with Cheryl is ready to go let me know and I will try to show up work permitting. The more notice the better. I was in Mexico and missed the clean up. I did find a new cave though. I hope it won't end up more fodder for future cave diver fights. Thanks for the info. Cindy

2005-03-25 20:47:03
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Phishfood
Posts: 682
Incept: 2004-03-03
Central Florida

PM sent

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Licensed phreatic formation observer

2005-03-25 21:09:24
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Kennyp
Posts: 58
Incept: 2004-11-26
L.A. ( Lower Alabama )

Cool deal Karl. I hope the momentum can be kept up on this issue.
Well done by all,
Kenny P.

2005-03-26 07:47:32
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Seahunt
Posts: 115
Incept: 2004-03-10
Westville, Florida

I would'nt hold my breath!!!!!!!

I remember going up river years ago with Jim Hollis, I believe it was 97, to Troy Springs. It too was a state park. I asked him about it being opened to the public. He told me once upon a time it was, littered with hundreds of people and trash. Then when some laws came into play it was closed, .. .i.e. requiring restrooms.

When they did open it, it was no longer divable. The river was blocked off. Weekends, summer and after school hours there would be dozens of kids diving off the small plateform.

It sounds like, if Wakulla is opened to diving. It will only be opened for certified cave divers. No others will be allowed. This may make it difficult to obtain funding to comply with requirements.

2005-03-26 12:49:16
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Seaplusplus
Posts: 3
Incept: 2005-03-26

<i>If we now turn those signatures into able-bodied men and women with saws, hammers and nails, we will soon be diving instead of chatting online.</i>

I just PM'd Nick over on cavediverforums this same message (since he was volunteering to coordinate):

--------------
I live just down the road from Emerald, and have carpentry experience. Count me in for labor and providing tools. Most are power tools, we'd need to find a generator. Short list:

Compressor (course, we could use tanks)
Framing nailgun
T-nailer
circular saws
table saw (portable)
big-ass compound mitre saw
drills
all the other assorted little things (levels, chalk lines, small cement mixer, etc)

I also have a couple of dive buddies who also have carpentry experience, and can bring plenty of tools, and I can probably twist their arms into coming.
---------

So, in short, get me some lumber and a generator, and a handful of dedicated people, and we can knock this thing out. I drive right past Emerald every day on my way to work, and the inaccessability of it has been driving me nuts. Between my dive buddies and myself, we can probably provide all the tools needed. And if we can't, I might just use it as an excuse to buy more. :)

Two things we'll need before getting started:
1) Site plans. I'm assuming we'll have to work with people from the park system as to how they want it built.

2) Lumber. We'll need to figure out the funding for it. Nick said he'd start looking around for donations. And we'll need a healthy budget for fasteners, since the wood will all be pressure treated. You can't use galvanized fasteners on the newer pressure treated wood these days, since the high copper levels eat through them. Stainless isn't cheap.

If anyone knows a formal committee for getting this stuff built, let me know so I can get in touch with them to volunteer my services, along with those of my buddies.

Wil

2005-03-26 17:59:40
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Genesis
Posts: 3293
Incept: 2004-02-05
Destin, FL

We're working on it.

Myself and a few others will be addressing this shortly. We're going to call their bluffs.

I've got, in addition to the circular saw, a somewhat-small oil-lube compressor (suitable for a couple of nailguns - and perfectly happy to run on a high duty cycle) and of course hand tools.

Watch here for more as we develop it. Coordination is happening.....

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2005-03-26 18:13:52
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Seahunt
Posts: 115
Incept: 2004-03-10
Westville, Florida

I don't think that will work.

I have many tools, compressors, 2gal - 60 gal, half a dozen nailers, chop saws from 7 1/4 - 10", radial arm sawas tables saws , sho size and portable, planers,..........

I spent a couple + decades working AVIONICS, the past few years I have been contractor. They are not going to let a few good-ol- boys in a pickup bring some lumber and build something. First of all, .. in Florida it is a felony!!!

I do not even go to state or government bids. To build their shit house, they will send out invitations to bid, advertise for many weeks or months. Contractors will show up, many of them to go through the numbers. It is a waste of time. The guy that is going to get it will be having a cup of coffee with the guy running the bid deal. He has done many jobs for them before and the state will just be going throught the numbers. then you will have weeks or months to submit your bids with your license info, insurance , bonds, etc.

I go out to install cabinets. People often ask, are you licensed and insured?

What license? Cabinetry is not a state licensed trade, i.e. plumbing, general contractor for structure, electrical. Cabinetry ,falls under handy man. When in Jacksonville, or Orlando we had a state occupational license. Holmes and Walton county do not have them.

Government normally require unreal insurance requirements. zillions of dollars just to cut grass.

Permits must be pulled. In a lot of places, simply to put up a Sears tin shed requires a permit, make sure it is in code and so they can raise property taxes.

Permits can only be pulled by a property owner or licensed contractor.

If you do anything that requires structure, electrical, plumbing etc. you have to have a state masters contractors license, it is a felony in Florida not to.

Florida does not like the liability of cave diving in their parks. That is why a lot of them require cave diving certification, only dive when the park is closed to others and not dive during recreation and swimmer hours.

Most cave divers would sign a waiiver to a roll of shit paper on a tree limb, but, this will not be the case.

In short, if the springs/sinks are to be for the certified cave diving community, they may have trouble getting funding to do the project. They may even, s they have done throughout in Florida, i.e. cruise ships, come up with some kind of scuba tax.

If you can work the opening of the sinks to "all divers and recreational snorkelers and swimmers", you may have a better chance.

Last modified: 2005-03-26 18:54:07 by seahunt

2005-03-26 18:49:40
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Genesis
Posts: 3293
Incept: 2004-02-05
Destin, FL

I doubt it. There have been a number of these projects undertaken on state land successfully for the cave diving community.

Don't be so pessimistic - at least not yet

(Note that Peacock does quite well with portapotties. I bet that'll do for the 'facility' requirement here as well.)

The other requirement is a boardwalk and steps to avoid erosion of the banks, primarily. I'm sure there's more but that's the biggie.

I bet we can get this done - we're certainly going to find out.

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Last modified: 2005-03-26 18:54:09 by genesis

2005-03-26 18:52:56
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Seahunt
Posts: 115
Incept: 2004-03-10
Westville, Florida

It can be done. What I am saying,..is:

If it is for a larger population then caver's ,.. you will have a better chance.

and if they try to open it only for caver's ,.. you may have some opposition.

2005-03-26 18:57:44
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Seahunt
Posts: 115
Incept: 2004-03-10
Westville, Florida

Peacock was opened long before Troy. It may be grandfathered in.

It has been at least 6 - 9 years since I was there, don't remember any toilets, just a honest box

They may require stricter standards now.

2005-03-26 19:00:48
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Seahunt
Posts: 115
Incept: 2004-03-10
Westville, Florida

A lot of people do not understand. When you hire a contractor or anyone, you are the employer and respnsible. If that guy falls off your roof, and does not have workers comp, you will be responsible for all lost wages and medical bills to starts.

Then the liars/lawyers file their bullshit suits.

Last modified: 2005-03-26 19:03:51 by seahunt

2005-03-26 19:02:50
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Resolute
Posts: 29
Incept: 2004-04-18
Atlanta, GA

Certainly the public park area around the sinks in question will be open to everybody (as is Peacock) - as anyone can utilize Peacock for picnicking or general sightseeing, nature watching, etc. So access to the land would be universal (as it should be) - although this would be a MUCH smaller area than Peacock. However, diving in the actual sinks is a different matter and one would expect actual diving activities to follow along the lines of the proposal submitted to park management by the 5 agencies. So, the areas would be open to non-cave divers, but we would expect that diving the sinks would not be.

Also, we would certainly have to follow the states specs and guidelines WRT improvements, and would want to determine this up front. However, between providing labor, tools, materials and funds where needed, we should certainly be able to augment any licensed contractor(s) (or fall under their supervision), if required. But this is obviously the next major issue to clarify as we work cooperatively with the Park Service to make this happen.

JB

2005-03-26 19:14:12
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Phishfood
Posts: 682
Incept: 2004-03-03
Central Florida

Notice the steps PLUS the ramp at Orange Grove. I don't know the layout at either of the sites in question. but I would bet that if the grade difference between the parking area & the final landing before the water entrance is significant, that state handicapped accessibility laws will require a ramp negotiable by those confined to a wheelchair. Not that diver access is not worth the cost, just to give everyone a heads-up.

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Licensed phreatic formation observer

2005-03-26 20:04:34
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Seahunt
Posts: 115
Incept: 2004-03-10
Westville, Florida

The state will not let anyone work on site without insurance and workers comp. Min policy is about $6000.00. You can get a waiver for two people , only you will need to incorporate a business and provide contractors licenses. They are tough in Florida, you just do not walk in and ask for a license. Most are only tested a couple times of the year in Orlando. They are expensive and tough.

A couple of nights ago I had a rattlesnake fall off the awning, into a planter a couple of feet away from me, they like portable toilets as well.

I am sure that the state will require a facility like that at Troy. You may research and see what had to be done to meet the states requirements.

I am sure you will need a building, handicapped requirements, which will need a well drilled, electricity, etc.

The state bought Morrison springs and gave it to the county, changing a lot of rules. Anyone that has been there has noticed the damage done by it being used to launch boats.

It is hard to get the government to do anything. The people with those jobs are paid the same and get their raises regardless of production. I am sure whom ever is to be in charge of it ...is not looking forward to the great amount of work that will be involved. I am sure their first concern will be the liability and lawsuit issues.

What is stopping people from diving the area. Is it laws, statues,.. or just someone in an office's policy?

2005-03-27 08:43:40
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Genesis
Posts: 3293
Incept: 2004-02-05
Destin, FL

There is no liability issue provided no fee is charged. See the Sportsman Act.

Section 375.251, Florida Statutes

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/inde....

The bottom line here appears to be intentional obstructionism by one individual, egged on by a small group. This will be determined in due course - whether it happened or not, whether lies have been told or not.

What appears clear is that the higher levels of the state park system agree that access should be available for diving. It is the "boots on the ground" folks who have been playing games.

We're collecting our evidence, and going to make our case. I suspect we will be successful. BTW, we already have some contractors - licensed folks - who are willing to get involved, with their construction trailers, tools, licenses, etc.

This project has a LOT more depth than appears from a few petitions Seahunt... as soon as we can put forward some concrete dates and activities, we will. There's an awful lot of organizing that has already happened, and we're working on more.

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Last modified: 2005-03-27 10:23:05 by genesis

2005-03-27 10:15:00
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Kelly
Posts: 125
Incept: 2005-03-27

I think a tremendous job has been done by all and I just wanted to comment on a few things from my experience
1)Cindy Butler is correct,things must be done with care. They have an obligation,but anybody being badgered and pushed will react negatively. Collaboration and a "how can I help you" attitude will be successful. If you look at what led us lose these sinks to begin with you want to be careful to not repeat the same mistakes.
2)Know what material requirements the state will require. Some treated lumbar is not allowed
3)ADA guidelines may need to be required
4)Biological survey will required in the sink by the state biologist to make sure there are no rare species-ever wonder about the path of the OG ramp. Once that is completed the plans must be approved,and they may want to have the piles driven by one of their contractors before doing construction.
5)Insurance may not be required if you become a state park volunteer,it is a one page form. Also logging of volunteer hours with the state brings recognition to what is being done-important
6)Also what diving rules? These systems are unique with depth and may require rules such as full cave,trimix,and 100 cave dives. I don't know what is appropriate but the state isn't completely without risk aversion.

Just my .02 worth and thanks for allowing to comment on your site Karl

2005-03-27 12:15:17
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Genesis
Posts: 3293
Incept: 2004-02-05
Destin, FL

Yep - we're aware of all of this.

There is a lot of information being developed on this entire situation at the present time. I'm not going to go into a lot of detail now, until there are hard facts and paper documentation - but the written record in terms of people's rants and raves on the net regarding obstruction of access by the public is long and distinguished.

So long as the land was under private ownership that's not only legal its perfectly fine. Private landowners can do what they wish. BUT - that is no longer the case - this is now public, state-owned property. There may have been some attempts to "rig" the situation, and if there are, we're going to get to the bottom of it.

The situation has received recognition at the highest levels of the park service at this point. There will be guidelines at least, and quite possibly rules, on qualifications to dive there - these systems are not Peacock, and should not be approached lightly. However, they're also not beyond the capability of those who are qualified - there simply are NOT only 100 people in the world who can safely dive these systems.

Risk aversion is always part of the process. But risk aversion goes both ways - there is the obvious risk aversion, and then there is the slightly less-obvious - aversion to being called out on doing something you shouldn't have done, but the toothpaste is long out of the tube and impossible to stuff back in.

You're always welcome here Kelly. Everyone is. Tell your friends and dive buddies - this is a unique forum for divers, in that I do not believe in censorship or promoting one particular point of view or another - but rather letting the debate rage on, and the public decide.

There are those who won't come chat here, IMHO because they're incapable of handling an open debate where they are unable to set the agenda and kick off those who disagree. That's their problem - not mine.

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2005-03-27 14:06:03
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Resolute
Posts: 29
Incept: 2004-04-18
Atlanta, GA

Thanks for the remarks Kelly (and Cindy). You have a lot of experience in this realm from your good work and successes at Peacock Springs State Park that should be of definate benefit in this situation as well. Hopefully we can all draw from that expertiese as we move forward through the critical cooperative interface and construction with the park officials.

John

2005-03-27 18:58:57
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